A free, democratic society cannot exist without a free press, democratic governments must not attempt to silence their critics, saidDavid Kostelancik, Chargé d’Affaires of the U.S. Embassy in Hungary. He said: „negative trends are continuing” in the sphere of press freedom and there are „alarming developments” as well. He mentioned the purchase of media outlets by government allies, the targeted distribution of publicly-funded advertisements and the intimidation of journalists.
David Kostelancik
David Kostelancik, speaking to diplomats and journalists, said that the United States is following the situation in Hungarian media. They know that
journalists are not doing their job, if they don’t ask tough questions,
and the free press is a fundamental element of accountability, that governments owe to citizens they represent.
David Kostelancik reminded the audience that media freedom is not only protected by the First Amendment of the American Constitution, but also by the Hungarian Fundamental Law, and the importance of protecting press freedom is enshrined in the United Nations Universal Declaration of Human Rights, the NATO treaty, the EU Charter of Fundamental Rights and the OSCE’s Charter for European Security.
He said:
“A free, democratic society cannot exist without a free press,”
and “our strongest, most stable, most trustworthy allies are those that share this commitment”.
He warned that free press did not mean that the press cannot be criticized, if it gets the facts wrong, or reports only those facts that support a particular editorial bias. President Donald Trump often criticizes the media, he continued, but these are his personal views, and as journalists “often point out, not every criticism of the government is fake news”.
It is the most important, according to David Kostelancik, that
“democratic governments must not attempt to silence their critics”.
It can happen in multiple ways, through
legal and regulatory blockades;
monopoly control;
pressure on advertisers;
attempts by the government to manipulate the advertising market;
outright threats and intimidation of journalists.
He reminded that the United States has spoken on multiple occasions about negative trends in the sphere of press freedom in Hungary, and these negative trends are continuing.
Such trends are:
Government allies have steadily acquired control and influence over the media market, including the last remaining independent regional newspapers.
Journalists who work for these outlets must follow pro-government editorial guidelines, and that they do not have the freedom to publish articles that are critical of the government.
The government also directs substantial publicly-funded advertising contracts to the outlets of friendly owners, and almost none to independent outlets.
They also hear reports that businesses are told not to “advertise with independent outlets, or they will face retribution”.
He addressed his concerns about the publication of names of individual journalists by “some media outlets closely linked to the government” that characterized them as threats to Hungary. He called this
an alarming development.
He said: “We must protect free press, even when it is critical of us, as it is the very foundation of democracy.”
He thinks there are still independent media outlets in Hungary, but “their numbers are dwindling”, and they face pressure, intimidation and challenges in the advertising market that the pro-government outlets do not.
Answering some questions, he also said that “Hungary is an ally and partner of the United States”, and it is not for the embassy to pressure the government when they see something they disagree with. But they carry out discussions on what concerns them, they reach out to the “colleagues in the Hungarian government”. He also said: since Hungary is an OSCE member, it is a duty to uphold certain standards, including the protection of press freedom.
It is not a democracy, where rules don’t apply to the wealthiest citizens, says Dean Starkman, an editor of Paradise Papers, the last wave of the giant offshore leaks. In an interview with FüHü, Starkman, fellow at the Center for Media, Data and Society at Central European University in Budapest and visiting lecturer at CEU’s School of Public Policy talked about the process of covering the leaks. He says the offshore system developed like a cancer, and he hopes that there will be other leaks. He also told us which name was the most surprising to him.
Dean Starkman Photo: FüHü
How did you get in touch with the International Consortium of Investigative Journalists, the group that covers the Paradise Papers?
I’ve been a journalist in the U.S. for a long time, in investigative circles, and it is a relatively small world. The fact is that I knew pretty well some people who were already working there. Some people used to work for me and they are now at ICIJ. And a senior editor at ICIJ, Mike Hudson was a subject of the book I wrote about the financial crisis. So I guess, I was known to them and then they called.
What was your task?
They had already been under way for more than a year with the Paradise Papers and I was pretty unaware of it. My task was essentially editing, I was a content editor, I would say. It was to shape and help guide a few stories. That was my role.
We are talking about 13.4 million documents. How many journalists, how many teams were needed to process all of them?
ICIJ is a fairly small operation with a dozen people or so, but it does have some of the leading data journalists in the world.
They are very accomplished and are basically experts in managing, processing and analyzing mass data leaks.
I am not a technical expert at all, but that can be a very complex business, because data come in all source of forms. They have their own set of skills, and there is the ICIJ model, which is quite unique: it is basically forming a professional collaboration of dozens and dozens of news organizations.
These organizations already exist, they have staff, reporters and lawyers and everything else. So they are able to leverage their small size with this larger network.
At the end it was 94 news organizations.
And the beauty is that everybody, like the Direkt36 in Hungary, Le Monde in France, CBC and CTV in Canada, The New York Times in the U.S., each one can go in and have an eye for what they think is interesting for their market. That’s really cool.
Photo: FüHü
You really have to be Canadian to understand who Stephen Bronfman is – the people behind Seagram’s, one of the leading families in Canada. Most people wouldn’t know who they were, they would just go over their name. And it happens all over the world, so they need smart reporters with different eyes on the material, with own perspective, experience. And they are able to pull stories. It’s a wonderful model.
How did they select the contributors, those outlets, those journalists who could work with them?
I wish I knew exactly the criteria. The thing is that these are established news organizations that have earned their reputation over the years. These are highly sensitive documents, right? It is a scenario that requires a high degree of professionalism. You don’t just need to be secure of hacks, you have to know how to work together.
You got this network around the world. Everybody is working together towards a single launch date. In this case it was November 5th. Nobody can let it slip out beforehand, even if they have a great story and there is competition, or whatever the pressure is. Also, when you are reporting on this stuff, you can’t call somebody who may call somebody else, and then the substance of the project is revealed before we wanted it to be.
Of course, the subjects are given enough time to react, to yell, scream and threaten,
but you want to decide about the moment when it is revealed. It is not only Appleby that doesn’t want its proprietary stuff leaking out, neither do we.
We have 94 moving parts around the world, and you have to be able to trust them.
These have to be trustworthy operations
that are disciplined and know what they are doing. I am just a hired hand there, but you have to be able to trust the others that they are not going to screw it up, make big mistakes, libel somebody, or get major facts wrong. That’s the trick of this.
Let’s go back to security. You mentioned that you wanted no leaks. What kind of security measurements did you have to prevent these?
Well, it is beyond my technical expertise. But to join ICIJ, to belong to their network requires a learning curve, probably all journalists need to do it. You recommend a lot of things to journalists to keep their communication and material secure. All of those tools are deployed, including encryption.
Photo: FüHü
However they hardened their virtual workspace, which is where people act around the world, is obviously critical, because all of those sensitive documents are online somewhere, they have to be, because not all people work in the office, they are not in Washington.
They think a lot about it, there are many emails, conversations about it, whether some people want to phish us or hack us and all those things. The proof that it worked was that everything was secure until the launch.
You know who the first one was to leak that an investigation was going on? Appleby itself, the firm from where half of the documents came. After they had been contacted, they issued a press release.
There is one question that everyone wants to know the answer to: how did Süddeutsche Zeitung receive these documents? Can you say anything about it, or is it top secret?
Yes, top secret, but the fact is that I don’t have any idea. (laughing)
And about why it was the Süddeutsche Zeitung that received them?
I don’t know specifically, but they were also the recipients of the Panama Papers. Once you get a reputation of being able to handle something like this, then the next guy who comes along will probably try you.
Photo: FüHü
That’s how it works: whistleblowers, whoever they happen to be, and I really have no idea who gave Süddeutsche Zeitung this material, they are exposing themselves, in some cases to a pretty extreme degree. They want to make sure that the handoff goes smoothly, that they are protected, that it is not retraced to them, that the risk they took will have some meaning, it will result in what they were looking for with the exposure of that stuff. These are not random choices of who gets such data.
Was there a verification process? Well, I am sure that there was, but were there any fake documents in the material?
Yeah, before you even begin with anything you have to do it. What if you had worked for a year and a half and then you discovered that the entire thing was a hoax. Or if Appleby could demonstrate that it is a complete forgery. That would be a disaster.
So verification is the first thing they do, but I don’t know what they did to do that, it was before I got there.
Why do you think uncovering offshore businesses is important?
For two big reasons: a practical and a moral reason. On a practical basis,
an enormous portion of the world’s wealth is hidden offshore.
It is difficult to know how much it is, but I’ve seen estimates up to 32 trillion dollars. That’s money that is for the most part untaxed, withheld from the public treasuries around the world, meaning that everybody who is not in this system has to make up the difference. This contributes enormously to inequality.
It is not just that people aren’t paying their fair share of taxes, but it leaves people who are already wealthy in control of wealth they obtained using the infrastructure that the rest of us pay for.
Photo: FüHü
The other part of it: it is by definition inherently unfair. It throws the very legitimacy of the system into question. It raises the question about whether democracy can function if it is unable to enforce the law against its wealthiest citizens.
If the wealthiest citizens aren’t the subjects of the same rules and regulations as the rest of us, well, then we are not living in a democracy any more.
If we value democracy, then its rules have to apply to everyone. If they don’t, then people lose confidence, and if people lose confidence in a democracy, then we don’t have one.
There were 120 thousand names in these documents. Which one was the most surprising to you personally?
Well, Prince Charles and the Queen… Or Bono. It’s a surprise, because he is also a crusader for social justice, in a serious way. But still, I think Wilbur Ross, he is a sitting U.S. cabinet member. The prominence of the names is what gave the project its power.
Did any of the affected persons threaten with a legal process?
Probably all of them did. (laughing)
Photo: FüHü
Did they just threaten, or have they already started with it?
I am not aware of any. The part of the process is that there shouldn’t be any surprises. So, everybody who is involved had a very detailed idea of what was coming. That process is not supposed to be ping-pong, it is a serious discussion. It has a lot of benefits to everybody, especially to news organizations which have the obligation to be as fair as possible.
Secondly, the subjects you are presenting this material to are the ones with most interest of anybody in the world to point out errors. So, you want people to verify and prevent you from making mistakes. You don’t want to have a number or a title wrong, you don’t want to have anything wrong.
If the story is caught weak end, because somebody points out something that you got wrong, so be it.
Anyway, that’s the nature of the whole process. Subjects react and respond.
Do you think that there will be any consequences for these persons? Because the Panama Papers had quite a few consequences…
I wouldn’t speculate, but I think that there is a general public awakening to issues of income inequality and the role of offshore systems in it. Honestly, it is thanks to ICIJ that this is on the public agenda at all.
Nobody was talking about the offshore system, and it developed like a freaking cancer.
In 30 years it’s become like a giant tumor in the financial system.
It’s a big business. We’re talking about an extreme amount of money that made its way out of the individual countries into tax havens. I don’t think that can last. I really don’t think.
Let’s talk a bit about the contributors again, in terms of their personal safety. Many of the journalists working on the project come from countries where the personal safety of journalists is not of paramount concern of the authorities. Do you know of any threats that the contributors received?
We all know about the Maltese journalist who was killed by a car bomb, apparently for her reporting on the Panama Papers. You know, that is a possibility for almost anyone, anywhere. But most of the risk is not lethal, that’s for sure, rather legal.
Photo: FüHü
There are some countries, like Hungary, where journalists are attacked personally, by name by the government-leaning press, and
it is very disgraceful and really pitiful.
That’s a risk as well. Or journalists face illegal surveillance, or legal surveillance, they face hacks… There are risks, but generally it is safe to say that in countries where rule of law is better established, the risk is lower. In places like Russia, they are much-much higher.
Are there any individuals, organizations that support this research?
Yes. I don’t know who they are, but they are available on the ICIJ website.
So, the system is transparent?
It has to be. It is not a shoestring operation, but it runs on a fairly tight budget. If you are very independent, it means that you probably will not have a lot of money lying around. That’s the way how our system is set up right now.
This was not the first wave of the offshore leaks. Do you think that there will be more waves?
I certainly hope so. Again, I’ve been working for them for a few months, but I had been a fan long before that.
The place has pulled off a series of mega-leaks in a row.
The first big one was called Offshore Leaks, then there was LuxLeaks, SwissLeaks and then there was the Panama Papers.
These were massive, giant data leaks of highly confidential material. And just when you think that it can’t go on, then the Paradise Papers comes out. It is true that one leak does lead to another. People around the world, with access to data see this and say: hey, I am working for an institution that is also doing something wrong, let’s see what I can do.
So, the answer is: I don’t know whether there will be any more leaks, but I hope so.
Even small victories can lift anti-Orbán hearts nowadays in Hungary. Thanks to the recent decision of the Kúria, Hungary’s highest judicial body, Viktor Orbán was rendered a defeat that must have hit him hard. At risk is what he considers to be one of his greatest achievements, the Felcsút Football Academy. Hungarian Spectrum:
Transparency International spent a considerable amount of time and energy investigating the government’s lavish support of sports and came to the conclusion that the sports financing system the Orbán government established is rotten to the core. In the course of its investigation Transparency International also ascertained that the „absolute winner of the whole system is the village of Felcsút and its football club.” Felcsút has become the symbol of everything that is wrong in Viktor Orbán’s Hungary. It is a village of 2,000 people with one of the most lavish football stadiums, which can seat 4,500. The club uses all sorts of tricks to entice people to attend the club’s games, usually to no avail. The stadium is practically empty most of the time. In fact, according to those in the know, Hungarian football is dead, and the incredible amount of money that was poured into the game was an utter waste. Hungary’s FIFA standing is the same as it was before.
Over the years people have tried to find out how much money was being spent on sports, mostly football. But the system is intentionally complicated in order to hide the exact amount that comes from two main sources: direct grants allocated for sports in the budget and something called Társasági Adókedvezmény/TAO (Corporation Tax Allowance), introduced in 2011. Corporations can get a tax break if they support one or more of five sports: football, handball, basketball, water polo, and ice hockey. Money allocated to support sports is considered to be part of the tax owed. Thus, all money that is donated to these sports is a direct loss to the central budget. Since 2011, according to the latest estimate, 330 billion forints of corporate tax money was diverted to sports organizations. Or, put another, more shocking way, in the last six years the Hungarian state has given up one out of every nine forints in tax revenue.
From this money 128 billion went to football clubs and 86 billion for handball, while the rest was shared by basketball, water polo, and hockey. Viktor Orbán has been insisting for years that TAO is not public money and therefore no one has the right to learn about the sponsors, the recipients, and the amount of the money donated.
Transparency International, being convinced that the tax allowance is public money, asked the ministry of human resources for their allocation figures, which was denied. Transparency at that point sued the ministry. In the first instance, Transparency lost the case. The decision was based on tax secrecy. In addition, the judge didn’t consider the requested data to be of public interest. On appeal, however, the decision was reversed. Tax secrecy as a reason for denying access to the information was discarded, and the court ruled that the TAO monies are, after all, considered to be public funds. The ministry then turned to the Kúria, and on October 25, 2017 the decision of the appellate court was upheld.
Concurrently with Transparency International’s suit against the ministry of human resources, Demokratikus Koalíció (DK) sued Viktor Orbán’s Academy in Felcsút for the release of all contracts for jobs that were financed by TAO money. Felcsút apparently received about 14 billion TAO forints in the last six years. In July 2016 the Székesfehérvár Court ruled in DK’s favor, but Felcsút Academy had no intention of obliging and appealed. In February 2017 the Budapest Appellate Court also ruled in DK’s favor, but for a different reason from the Székesfehérvár Court. While the lower court considered TAO to be public money, the appellate court based its verdict on the non-profit status of Felcsút Academy. Felcsút Academy was obliged to turn over all documents relating to TAO funds within 15 days. Felcsút Academy again appealed the verdict, and thus the case ended up in the Kúria for a final decision. On November 15 the Kúria ruled that Felcsút must provide details of how they spent the enormous amounts of “public” money. The verdict could have been predicted because a month earlier, in connection with the Transparency International case, the Kúria had already declared TAO funds to be a public resource.
Index described the verdict as “the final and humiliating defeat of Orbán’s football academy.” János Lázár’s reaction a day later amply showed what kind of a country Hungary has become in the last six or seven years. During Lázár’s usual press conference on Thursday, when asked his opinion of the Kúria’s decision, he said: “There is a judge in this country who is very angry with Hungary’s government and Fidesz. His name is András Baka. Because of his changed official status, he has been greatly offended, and for some strange reason all TAO cases end up on his desk. I wouldn’t want to suppose that any bias would have influenced the judge, who on numerous occasions publicly criticized Fidesz and the government.”
Let’s stop here for a moment and go back to 2011, when the Hungarian Supreme Court became the Kúria. The chief justice at the time was András Baka who, prior to his appointment in 2008, had been a judge at the European Court of Justice for Human Rights for 17 years. Although he was considered to be a conservative judge, he became worried about Viktor Orbán’s so-called judicial reforms. He objected, for example, to the forced early retirement of judges, which gave the government a free hand to fill about 300 positions that became vacant as a result of the new law on retirement. Orbán desperately wanted to get rid of Baka and eventually came up with a good excuse. Baka hadn’t been a judge in Hungary for five years. His 17 years with the European Court of Justice were not considered relevant. Baka turned to the European Court of Human Rights and eventually was awarded about 100,000 euros, which naturally the Hungarian government, or to be precise Hungarian taxpayers, had to cough up. Baka couldn’t return to his old post, which had been filled by someone else, but he was reinstated, I’m sure grudgingly, as one of the leading judges in the Kúria.
The Kúria’s answer to Lázár was brief and to the point. They will not comment on politicians’ statements concerning their activities, but the spokesman explained that the assignment of cases is determined a year ahead and given to judges according to their professional specialties.
Unfortunately, I’m not at all sure that this is the end of the story because János Lázár intimated at the press conference that it was time “to make order” as far as TAO is concerned. To make order to me means that they will most likely come up with some modification to the law that would prevent the public from learning where that incredible amount of money has gone.
Training six days a week, 4-5 hours per day – this is how the Hungarian national team prepares for the synchronized swimming World Cup and Junior World Championship, both of which will be held in Budapest. The president of the federation says that interest has been growing in the sport. As the captain of the national team says to Független Hírügynökség: the team has many young members, they prepare for a huge event in their life.
Budapest will organize the synchronized swimming World Cup between May 18 and 20, and the Junior World Championship between July 17 and 22. According to Bernadett Iker, the president of the Hungarian Synchronized Swimming Federation, this is a very big thing.
Photo: MTI/EPA/Patrick B. Kraemer
As she says, the World Cup was started last year, and the FINA,
the International Swimming Federation wants it to play a big role in the future.
Now it consists of ten contests, where the best synchronized swimmer in the world compete. According to previous news, the Russian national team that has been dominating this sport for decades will come to Budapest again.
Photo: MTI / Kovács Tamás
Bernadett Iker thinks that this opportunity for Budapest is also important because it means a chance to host this event in the long term.
It is also important for the future of the sport. As Bernadett Iker says,
synchronized swimming events went full house last year at the FINA World Championship,
and the interest of possible athletes has been growing since then. Now there are 1000 synchronized swimmers in the country.
The members of the national team are very excited. As Natalia Tarasova, the captain of the team says to Független Hírügynökség, many of the team members are very young and
they prepare for the competitions as a huge event in their life.
So they train a lot, of course. The spectacular elements require very hard work, as Natalia Tarasova points out, they train six says a week, 4-5 hours a day. Moreover, when they were in the training camp, there
they trained 8 hours every day.
The Russian national team will be back. Photo: MTI / Czeglédi Zsolt
The captain of the national team doesn’t expect an outstanding result at the World Cup, as she says, the team is young, gaining experience is the most important. However, she hopes that team gets in the final (meaning the best 12) at the Junior World Championship. The Hungarian national teams have never managed to achieve it so far, so this would mean a huge success.
We should distinguish between legitimate criticism and stereotypes that may create a reaction, which is of concern, says Israeli Ambassador to Hungary, Yossi Amrani in an interview with FüHü. He doesn’t want to judge the anti-immigration campaign of the Hungarian government, he states: every society should decide itself whether it accepts immigrants. Yossi Amrani says that Iran is a threat and Israel will take all possible measures, „diplomatic or others”, to preempt its excessive influence in Syria. He also talks about where he sees an opportunity to develop Israeli-Hungarian economic relations.
Yossi Amrani Photo: Embassy of Israel
Last summer, the two prime ministers talked about the development of the economic relationship between the two countries. Are the results already visible?
The two prime ministers made quite a breakthrough in the relationship between the two countries on different aspects. Some aspects will take more time and more effort to accomplish. Once you decide on stronger economic cooperation, then it is about creating the conditions for it.
You see the appointment of State Secretary László Palkovics as head of the Hungarian-Israeli Joint Economic Committee. He is a doer, he has been to Israel a few times since the Prime Minister’s visit,
he is exploring different aspects of cooperation, basically scientific and technological,
translated into joint ventures.
The Committee will meet in Hungary in May. So, this is one avenue of cooperation. Last week we hosted a 3-day Israeli visit of the V4 innovation working group. This is the second round of meetings, the aim is to expose the Israeli high-tech environment to the V4 countries. Now the V4 have to conclude among themselves on the priorities. My counterparts in the Ministry of Foreign Affairs and Trade are very optimistic.
On our own, we try to encourage Israeli businessmen to explore the possibilities of investment in Hungary. We are more engaged as an embassy, there is an active economic department, which has not existed in the past. I would not say that we would see immediate results in the volume of trade, this would take more time, but on the aspect of academic, technological, scientific cooperation we definitely see the beginning.
The high-tech sector, innovation is very strong in Israel. Do you think that this will be the main focus of the cooperation?
There are different aspects. There is TEVA, it is an Israeli company, which is active in the country, though it is still undergoing certain restructuring. There is NNG, which is owned by Israelis. There are major Israeli investments in real estate development in the country.
The opportunity to invest in Hungary exists.
A government has to identify where it sees the advantage of joint cooperation, a win-win for both countries.
It can be agriculture, there is ongoing cooperation on this field, a Hungarian group is going to Israel every year, Israeli know-how is implemented in the country. There is cooperation on water management, Hungary is a leading country in that aspect.
What we see as a major aspect is safe cities, smart mobility and high-tech. That’s where you see a potential of cooperation. And cyber, whether it is civilian or any other kind of cyber use. I can’t go into specifics, because things are in the making. But there is a process, a trend, and you have to nurture and support this trend, but there is a commitment on both sides.
There has been a great emphasis on tourism in recent years, in both direction. Is it still growing?
The numbers are very high. You can never figure out the exact number of Israeli tourists, because many Israelis, once they fly to Europe, are using EU passports, many Israelis hold double citizenship. We have figures of Israelis using Israeli passports. The numbers are close to 200,000 a year.
This is a high number. Even if you don’t have the exact figures, it is enough to walk on certain places in Budapest to hear Hebrew. So
the presence of Israeli tourism is very high here,
there are some Israeli hotels in the city as well.
Photo: Embassy of Israel
I think that the future is to deploy more Israeli tourists all over in the country. Now they spend their time in Budapest, they love Budapest, they love coming here, they like eating in local restaurants – Budapest is well known. But we are now trying to expose other parts of the country. Balaton comes as a priority, but not only Balaton, there is a direct flight between Debrecen and Tel Aviv. This part of the country, Debrecen, Nyíregyháza and maybe other destinations can also be important.
The number of Wizz Air and El Al flights to Budapest is a clear indication that this is a profitable direct line between the countries and there is a demand for that. We see more Israelis visiting Hungary, ten times if not more, than Hungarians visiting Israel. Over there we should see more progress.
In recent years there were several political campaigns in Hungary that, many people said, had anti-Semitic tones. For example, the campaign against George Soros. What do you think about this?
I am very careful with the use of the word anti-Semitism. I would recommend to anyone to think in advance what it means to be an anti-Semite. For me, and this is my definition, to be an anti-Semite is to hold certain views of the Jewish people and Israel. Having a view on a certain individual like me or anyone else does not constitute anti-Semitism.
You can have your views on certain people, you can have your criticism on Israel, as long as this criticism is not accompanied by anti-Semitic tones.
For me to have anti-Semitic tones means to generalize certain prejudices and superstitions about the Jews.
What about when an MP shares a photo on which a person’s name appears on a dead pig?
I would distinguish between criticism, which is legitimate, and the use of certain images and certain stereotypes, which may create a certain reaction, which is of concern. If someone takes a photo of a Jewish person, or someone of Jewish origin, and it is not necessarily the same, it is a question of how you identify yourself, so, if someone takes a picture which is identified with a known Jew and has it with a slaughtered pig, then I would call it insensitive, bad taste, lack of proper judgment.
I would be very afraid to call it anti-Semitic, but at the same time I have to be very honest and very clear:
once those things may repeat itself and once people understand that the overtone or the general tone may be inciting against Jews and bring different terrible images from the past, then this is a real danger and real threat to the society, beyond the question of anti-Semitism.
At the end we are all supposed to be quite educated about the past, about each other.
Also, many people say that the narrative of the campaign against the asylum-seekers resembles a certain narrative from the 30s. For example, when politicians are talking about a globalist enemy that has no home, speculates with money… What do you think about this?
I would not judge the anti-immigration campaign in Hungary or in any other country. We have to be clear about the definitions. There are labor immigrants and there are human rights refugees. Once you deal with human rights refugees, then I think it is a human responsibility to provide shelter, to find a solution to the misery of people.
Israel is also facing a challenge of illegal immigration. People, who seek “shelter” there, are they prosecuted in their own country? It is not always the case. Some of them left a certain country and walked thousands of kilometers through many other countries and then they asked asylum in Israel. By international law,
you can leave your country and ask for asylum, but you have to do it in the first country of destination.
When you travel to many different countries and settle where the economic situation and the standard of living is much better, then it is a tough choice for the society whether it is willing to absorb immigrants or not. It is like asking to host someone in your home. A country is your collective home. You should be the ones to decide about absorbing others. This is not racism, this is not about immigrants, it is protecting your way of life.
In general, how do you see: is anti-Semitism a problem in today’s Hungary?
Photo: Embassy of Israel
I don’t want to talk about today’s Hungary, I think all over the world numbers and incidents show that we see the ongoing terrible face of anti-Semitism. In Hungary you see that the government is very active and very sensitive to the concerns of the Jewish community. You see the government investing in Jewish life and Jewish history.
But at the same time people have certain opinions, certain views, that’s what the public opinion polls show, which harbor certain anti-Semitism.
Jewish people are safe in this country.
But we are not yet in a world, where bigotism, xenophobia and prejudices are erased. This is the case not just in Hungary, but in many countries in Europe.
We are close to the Holocaust day in April, and you ask yourself whether the lesson has been learned in this continent. Some of the immigrants who come to Europe introduce again anti-Semitic views. This is also something to think about.
There is a vibrant Jewish cultural life in Budapest, but less so in the countryside. I know that you have visited many places in Hungary, do you think that Jewish cultural life can have a revival in the countryside as well?
I think that there can be and there should be. And I think that
the different Jewish organizations in the country should cooperate in introducing Jewish cultural life in the countryside.
If we would like to dispel certain prejudices, then it is about sharing culture, not imposing views. It is either through education, but also through cultural cooperation. In this regard, together with ZsiFi, the Jewish Film Festival, we started a joint project of a Jewish-Israeli film week. Hopefully this year we will deploy the festival in five other cities, not only in Budapest. We started last year, but it was only on a low scale. This year we have higher expectations.
We have now an exhibition of Israeli art. Any time we can, we are trying to introduce Israeli culture to the countryside, but we need partners for that. More than what we have now.
Israel condemned the Polish Holocaust-law. Are there negotiations about it, or any development?
Israel considers Poland a key strategic ally, an important country within the EU and the Visegrad Group. We have strong cooperation in different aspects. There are now certain differences between the two governments on the respective Polish law.
Regardless of the Polish sensitivity, which we recognize,
there is a need to recognize Jewish and Israeli sensitivity.
The two governments decided to form an expert’s commission from both countries. Having in mind the good cooperation, the history of the relationship between the countries, it is very important that they committed themselves and engage in open exchange of views to better understand the sensitivities. Hopefully it would provide them and us with an insight that would allow us to resolve this crisis.
When we talk about Israel it is inevitable to talk about the war that goes on in Syria. There were reports that Israel helps certain rebel groups to keep Iran as far from the border as possible. But the Syrian government seems to be more and more powerful, and this also means that Iran’s influence in Syria is getting bigger. What is Israel’s point about it? Is there a red line?
Syria is a neighboring country and a country of instability of the last 8+ years. Israel has tried its best to keep itself out of the conflict in Syria, but we have certain strategic interest, security and diplomatic interest in that country.
You may remember that
Israel is offering medical help to the victims of the Syrian civil war,
hundreds, if not thousands of Syrians have been treated in Israeli hospitals. We do not want to take an active part in the political bickering among the different groups in Syria. We are fully aware of potential consequences of future instability in the country and the disintegration of the sovereign Syrian state, but
Syria cannot be a part of a certain Iranian axis. Israel will take all possible measures, whether they are diplomatic or others, to preempt such a scenario.
We engage in close contacts with different relevant players in the Syrian conflict, to make sure that the strategic balance in the region is not being jeopardized.
Iran is a threat.
The Iranian effort to expand its influence to neighboring countries creating a certain axis to the Mediterranean is an issue of concern.
The Hezbollah also gained strength in the Syrian war, and the terror group reportedly has thousands of missiles aimed at Israel. Is an upcoming war a possibility?
I am not a prophet, and I definitely don’t want to be a prophet of wars. There is a certain military situation, a risk assessment. We discussed Iran, this is also part of the risk assessment. Israel now enjoys a very close strategic cooperation with some of its Arab neighbors. This is an important development in the strategic perspectives of Israel.
Hezbollah is there.
Some people think Hezbollah is a political power, but I don’t know any other political power in the world with such a firepower and missiles power.
The statements made by Sheikh Nasrallah, the Secretary General of Hezbollah, echo the statements coming from Iran and are about shelling Israel, putting Israel on fire and so on.
Israel is a country that takes security very seriously.
We will not let Hezbollah or anyone else undermine normal life in Israel.
And Hezbollah knows it.
Speaking of the cooperation with Arabic countries, Iran is now a common enemy of Israel and Saudi Arabia. It was reported that there had been historic talks on high levels between the countries, Israeli generals gave interviews to Saudi media…
Retired generals…
Do you think that this process can eventually lead to peace treaties as well?
I recommend a historic perspective, as we are approaching landmark dates, April 19th will be the 70th jubilee of Israel’s independence. I don’t ask you to recall 1948, or even 1967 or 1973. I would just say that Israel is a very different country in 2018. A strong country.
Photo: Embassy of Israel
The strength of a country is not measured only by its military power, it is also judged by its economic power, by its place in the international community, by its spiritual and intellectual power. In 2018 Israel is very different than the Israel I was born into.
So, this is part of the change, and the other part is the legitimacy and the acceptance Israel is gaining in its own region.
It is not the invader any more.
It is not a group of colonialists moving to the Holy Land. Israel is a player, a part of the national security in many countries in the region. And this is a very important development that we should not ignore.
The cooperation, and I would not elaborate beyond that, between Israel and neighboring countries is on security matters.
The security of Israel depends on the security and stability in other countries. But we should also say that their security and stability depends on Israel’s cooperation.
So this is a win-win.
This is the development in the last few years. Basically the roots were in the Obama administration’s policy, the Iran agreement, but mostly it is the result of the developments in the region itself. There is an understanding that through cooperation you serve your own purposes much better.
Two, two and a half years ago several experts in Israel told me that there is a ceiling of cooperation because of the Palestinian issue. They also said that it is not the most important one for other Arabic countries, however, it is a symbolic one, so, there can’t be open cooperation between Israel and Arab countries unless it is solved somehow. Do you agree? Do you think that the two-state solution is still viable?
I believe in the two-state solution, I think it is Israel’s interest. I am not sure whether the Palestinians have this idea in their mind that we should develop into two separate political sovereign entities. For Israel the two-state solution is a must. We need to find a political resolution, and I am not sure we are getting close to there. So
I believe in the two-state solution, but I don’t know whether it is feasible in the immediate future.
On the question of a ceiling to Israel’s relationship with the region… In my career I have learnt not to accept any ceilings, any limits set by certain professionals. Shimon Peres used to say that professionals are very good in analyzing the past, they are not very good in foreseeing the future. I can understand the logic of those professionals you quoted, but this was true ten years ago. And we have seen progress.
Now, the question is what we expect. Open borders? Exchange of tourists? This is not what is on the agenda. The basics of bilateral relations are on it: economic, military, strategic cooperation and the cultural, people to people relations.
By my analysis, out of the four elements we are making a huge progress in the first three. Economic cooperation: gas, electricity, water, it is happening, it is infrastructure, it is life. Without that, there is no life. Military cooperation: I should not go into any further details, but you just need to watch the news. Strategic cooperation: we have discussed that Israel is stability for many countries, their stability is Israel’s stability.
The one element that is missing is the people to people relationship.
70 years after the war of independence, with the history of the region, this is something that may develop in the future. If you explore the history of the French-German relationship, and you see the chemistry between the leaders of the two states, the cultural cooperation, then let me remind you that this was not the case till the end of World War II. The world has changed. The world can change between Israelis and Arabs as well.
I don’t believe in ceilings, I believe in interests and in Realpolitik. We live now in an era when the leaders of most Arab countries are realistic, and they see the interest of their countries.
Does the acknowledgment of Jerusalem as Israel’s capital influence this process?
No, because it is the capital of Israel. Where else is the capital of Israel? Honestly, all those people, especially Europeans who criticize President Trump and say that he has derailed the peace process or hampered stability in the region, when they go to Israel, where do they visit? Which city do they hold their meetings in? Haifa? Afula? Jerusalem, where else, it is the capital.
For some reasons it is very difficult for some countries to recognize Jerusalem. Okay. But there is no other capital.
A Független Hírügynökség kiadásai meghaladják bevételeinket.
A pártoktól független újságírás egyre nehezebb helyzetben van Magyarországon.
A hagyományos finanszírozás modelleket nem csak a politika lehetetleníti el, de a társadalmi kihívások is.
A fuhu.hu fennmaradásához, hosszútávú működéséhez, szerkesztőségünk rászorul támogatásotokra.
Segítségetekkel lehetőség nyílik arra, hogy munkánkat továbbra is az eddig megszokott színvonalon végezhessük tovább.
